Interview with Mason Ducharme

This interview is the first in a series of interviews with notable public servants.

Mason Ducharme is a citizen of two nations, Lil’wat and Samahquam. At the age of 23, he was one of the youngest band administrators in Canada. Mason is currently a PhD candidate at the University of Victoria where the focus of his research is retention of Indigenous executives in Indigenous organizations.

The interview was conducted by Hassan Arif, lawyer and adjunct assistant professor at the School of Public Administration at the University of Victoria. Both Mason and Hassan are IPAC-Victoria Board members.

Hassan: You are a citizen of two nations, Lil’wat Nation from your father, Samahquam Nation from your mother, tell me how this is important to you and a source of pride?

Mason: Both Lil’wat and Samahquam are part of St’at’imc Nation which consists of eleven communities, Lil’wat is the biggest of these communities while Samahquam is one of the smaller ones. Samahquam is located down a dirt road, a 30-40 minute drive to get there.

 My grandmother on my father’s side was from Lil’wat while my grandmother from my mother’s side was from Samahquam.

 I am registered under Lil’wat but I am also from Samahquam, something I must remember. Otherwise, the elders would be (teasingly) mad at me if I forget this.

Hassan: You were one of the youngest band administrators in Canada, at the age of 23, for Nuchatlaht, what events led you to this role so early?

Mason: I applied for the band administrator job when I was finishing my Bachelor of Business Administration at Capilano University. I was called for an interview but, ultimately, was told that they had hired someone else. So, instead, I participated in the Province of British Columbia’s Aboriginal Youth Internship Program (AYIP). This program is now known as the Indigenous Youth Internship Program.

Through AYIP, one gets a period of time in a Ministry. I was with what was then the (provincial) Ministry of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation (MARR) in Fort Saint John. Then, in June, 2018, I was hired on as the band administrator for Nuchatlaht as part of the AYIP’s Indigenous organization placement. Upon completing the AYIP program, I accepted a permanent role with the Nuchatlaht Tribe as their band manager.

Hassan: What was your motivation in seeking this position?

Mason: I felt that I could make the most meaningful and positive impact for a First Nations community in this executive role. I wanted to do good work, learn on the job, and build capacity of those around me.

Hassan: What was your most important accomplishment in this role?

Mason: Creating the Tsunami Preparedness Strategic Plan 2018-2020. In January 2018 there was a tsunami warning for Vancouver Island due to a 7.9 earthquake in Alaska. During this tsunami warning, there was a Telus outage which resulted in there being no phone or internet service in the area.

Due to this outage, Nuchatlaht Tribe did not receive any tsunami warning from Emergency Management British Columbia. It was only after the tsunami warning ended that residents were informed.

I held a focus group that included Nuchatlaht Tribe staff to get their input and develop a Tsunami Preparedness Strategic Plan, with a final document that included a wide range of input.

Hassan: From your experience as band administrator, how would you encourage youth to get involved in public administration?

Mason: For Indigenous youth, internship programs like IYIP that involve partnerships with provincial public sector are important. It is also important for internships for Indigenous youth to include rotations with Indigenous organizations. The provincial and federal governments have such programs.

These rotations with Indigenous organizations are important as Indigenous organizations are underfunded and have limited staff. Often one plays multiple roles in an Indigenous organization due to the limited staff.

Mentorship is very important too with the First Nations Public Service Secretariat being one avenue for this. There is a need to facilitate mentorship for Indigenous youth through groups, committees, and networking. There is a potential role for this with an IPAC Indigenous Branch.

Educational programs are important as well. The University of Victoria’s School of Public Administration has the Indigenous Community Development and Governance program. The University of Victoria Law School has an Indigenous Law program and the university’s MBA program is developing a stream in Indigenous Reconciliation.

Representation is another key factor, seeing other Indigenous people, providing mutual help and support.

Hassan: The focus of your doctoral studies is retention of Indigenous executives in Indigenous organizations, what in your professional and academic career led you to this topic?

Mason: Through my band executive work, I saw and experienced the burnout due to the demands on Indigenous organization executives where staffing and funding are limited, where one has to perform multiple roles. I’ve also seen high turnover among Indigenous organization executives.

I also noticed that a lot of non-Indigenous (mainly Caucasian) older males occupied executive roles in Indigenous organizations. There are not many Indigenous executives even though our people are getting education and work experience.

Indigenous governments need resources. A good model to consider is the federal-provincial fiscal relationship, where equalization is provided to provinces such as New Brunswick. There is a need for no-strings attached multi-year funding as exists in this federal-provincial fiscal relationship.

There are often very stringent conditions placed on funding to First Nations governments.

According to the leading expert in Indigenous-Canadian fiscal relations, Dr. Brunet-Jailly (2008), the Federal Government severely underfunds First Nations compared to non-First Nations citizens on a per capita basis. This number is $15,000/$16,000 for non-First Nations citizens compared to $9,000 for First Nations citizens.

Another example of underfunding is the First Nations Child and Family Services, which saw First Nations experience a 22% funding gap in 2000 when compared to Provinces and Territories (McDonald, Ladd et al, 2000). Also, there is a gap with regards to First Nations on-reserve school funding where there was a 30% funding gap when compared to the Provinces and Territories in 2016 (Porter, 2016).

Hassan: Elevator pitch, tell me about your research so far.

Mason: I have research results from five interviews, more are to be conducted, so these findings are preliminary.

The listed reasons for turnover of executives of Indigenous organizations include:

·       Lateral violence where anger is directed towards peers

·       Burnout

·       Low pay and limited benefits

·       Political interference in operations

Some of these problems, for example low pay, speak to the need for federal resourcing.

A further issue is that Non-Indigenous people holding roles on Indigenous Governing Bodies are often paid more.

Hassan: I have a follow-up question, you brought up how non-Indigenous people are paid more for holding roles on Indigenous Governing Bodies, are there other ways they are treated differently?

Mason: Yes, they face less lateral violence.

Non-Indigenous people are not “in” the community. Executives who are part of the community have to face people when they go home, and when they go out. I had that experience when going out to an event in my community, when someone approached me, angrily asking “Are you so-and-so’s supervisor? I need to speak to you.” This was a community event and outside work hours. This incident turned me off from participating in community events again.

Also, often the voices, views and “expertise” of white people are valued more than that of Indigenous people. I’m not sure the exact reason why, but I think some of it is that Indigenous people are afflicted with racism against themselves. These are part of the lingering effects of colonialism.

Hassan: What lessons should public servants in non-indigenous organizations (local, provincial, federal) take from your research?

Mason: None. This research is for Indigenous Organizations. My research is about building and strengthening Indigenous Organizations, I don’t want it to be used by non-Indigenous governing bodies to poach Indigenous talent. Non-Indigenous governing bodies and organizations can do their own research, on Indigenous retention in federal and provincial governments.

 Overall, there is a tremendous demand for Indigenous talent in non-Indigenous organizations. This is due to these organizations implementing the Truth and Reconciliation Commission’s 94 Calls to Action, and the implementation of the Universal Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (UNDRIP).

Hassan: Why the focus on public administration and governance in your career?

Mason: I was a fan of the Office and wanted to be a “boss” like Michael Scott, so I enrolled in business, a BBA at Capilano University. I got an internship at an accounting firm however I did not like the job. I felt that all I was doing was making the rich richer, helping them avoid taxes. This did not fit with my values.

In the third and fourth years of my undergraduate degree, I took a variety of courses to figure out where I would end up. Also, I started becoming a fan of Parks and Recreation, which is about the public sector.

I found the public sector gave me a chance to serve my community, to make a positive difference. 

I was admitted to the Masters of Public Administration program at the University of Victoria which I enjoyed, though I found it light on math, and I enjoy math.

I continued into the PhD program in Public Administration at the University of Victoria. I enjoy the show Community, so I enjoy school.

I’d also add that professors Evert Lindquist and Kim Speers were great contacts in getting me to enroll in the PhD program at the University of Victoria.

Hassan: You have an incredibly busy schedule… between consulting, doctoral studies, and raising young children, what do you do to relax?

Mason: That’s a good question. It is hard to get free time, but I try to strike a balance.

I enjoy watching comedy TV shows, and the odd trashy reality TV show, like Love is Blind. Shhhh… don’t tell anyone about that!

I also enjoy going to concerts, mainly classic rock, and watching movies, especially Marvel movies. I record my own podcast, The IndigeDoctor: From Reservation to Dissertation, and I play video games. The games I’m currently playing are Hogwarts Legacy and The Last of Us.

When I started my doctoral studies, I was overwhelmed as I was also working as the Director of the Tśzil Learning Centre for Lil’wat Nation, and I had my first child who was under a year’s old. I made the decision to leave my job as a director, it was scary as had a young child and I was giving up a steady income, but it helped in striking a work-life balance.